All of a sudden, there’s an emptiness within him that has never been there before. I wouldn't send any more than 2 Chaos Marine squads forward in Rhinos, though. However it happens, with that fourth anchor cut loose, the renegade Space Marine has nothing holding him to his old life within his Chapter. Potentially, entire Space Marine formations could go down this route without ever succumbing to the lure of Chaos. Before falling to Chaos, Chaos Space Marines were once loyal warriors of the Emperor, but now are a dark inverted reflection of the Space Marines. It’s the Imperium. And out of the darkness, the wolves came whispering. For Chaos Space Marines, this is pretty damn important, because your only ranged weapons that do multiple damage are plasma guns and so any way to make your 1-damage shots count is helpful. Just faith in our destiny! Space Marines and chaos are far easier to wrap your hear around. Or, alternatively, worship our glorious Deus Mechanicus, our machine god the Void D- Ommnissiah, yeah Ommnissiah, nothing in the Noctis Labyrinth, don't know what you're talking about. Chaos is freedom. I can help you with that. The word bearers were seeking a god, because Lorgar was seeking a god and they are 100% loyal to him and molded in his image. Alternatively, he can blame the Emperor himself and decide that the Man In The Shiny Chair isn’t worthy of his loyalty. Personality Chaos Warhammer 40k Space ... Report. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. So read with caution. The Sisters of Battle are very pious and strict in their religious practices. In this update to the popular co-op mode players will take on the role of Chaos Space Marine as they take the fight to both the Ork horde and Imperial Guard forces. And when I say Chaos Space Marines I mean the actual Marines. :P . Here’s another bit of nerdiness for you. You serve the Dark Gods, but you forge your own path through the stars. Chaos Marines have extended lifespans due to the time-warping effects of the Eye of Terror, and the fact that space marines as a whole are unable to die of old age, and their millennia of experience gives them levels of mastery with more advanced skills and tactics that Loyalist Space Marines do not have. But even with your normal Marines like Tactical, Bikers, or Raptors, you get to customize them with Chaos marks. Why is he much ignored? And he had nothing. What respect and dignity could normal humans get from chaos? Renegade Space Marines are Space Marines who have turned their back on the Imperium but have yet to fall to the taint of Chaos, differentiating them from Chaos Space Marines.. Desertion amongst the ranks of the Adeptus Astartes is extremely uncommon. Why side with literal daemons? Or, he might decide to start killing his former allies and start a war with his other traitorous kin. The Night Lords do not worship any of the four Chaos Gods individually, but acknowledge them equally in the form of Chaos … Skip it if the psychology of little plastic posthumans isn’t your thing. No real relationship. Anyway, you have your common Marine fair in Chaos Space Marines, OBVIOUSLY. Change ), You are commenting using your Google account. The Imperium put this need for service and obedience into the Space Marine, and it’s that factor that leads to renegades falling to the dark side. However, when a Space Marine Chapter is overstretched, it is impossible for Chaplains to monitor every battle-brother. But even with your normal Marines like Tactical, Bikers, or Raptors, you get to customize them with Chaos marks. VT2: Question: what do you get if you take a 3rd edition chaos marine, and remove all his equipments, powers, and bonuses? Some Guard and Marines are declared heretics by the Inquisition. The Chaos Space Marines are set to receive a huge wave of new reinforcements in the near future – not to mention the amazing Daemonkin units in Warhammer 40,000: Shadowspear – so this week, we’re taking a closer look at the Traitor Legions themselves. He needs a new anchor, something to keep his sanity in check. Just with like collecting any army in Warhammer 40,000, you will need this Codex to accompany the game’s main rules which are … Melee-focused daemon engines tend to Threat Saturation. (Originally posted on my semi-defunct Tumblr some time ago.). Chaos has an embarassment of riches when it comes to infantry. Any deviation from the canon would be met with strict disciplinary measures, and falling to Chaos would be dealt with harshly. "hey whats that loud obnoxious whining coming from over there" "oh its nothing ignore it". Change ), You are commenting using your Twitter account. Gold « » Log in or sign up. Plague Marines and Rubric Marines are tougher. Yesterday, we saw a glimpse of how the Space Marines are looking in the new edition, so we reckon it’s only fair we investigate their dark brethren, the Chaos Space Marines, next. A few chapters that specialize in certain skills do have some ability to do this, like raven guard and white scars, but only to a certain degree. You’ve just got to look like you do. To a certain extent this is just my opinion, as far as I'm aware the issue of mercenary marines has never been dealt with. They’re programmed from childhood through indoctrination and hypnosis to be obedient, to think of their Chapter, their primarch, their commanders and the Emperor above all other concerns. Good boys gone bad. As a Chaos Space Marine player, I definitely do not follow the "norm" that was stated on here, and my tactics seem to work for some reason, even though they're really simple. And, the joy of this (from the point of view of a Chaos follower) is that it’s not the inherent weakness of humanity that turns Space Marines to Chaos. Chaos Space Marines are basically Imperial Space Marines who have forsaken their oath to the Imperium of Man to serve the Ruinous Powers, which is Heresy.Marines do this for a number of reasons, although the cause of this is usually finding that the ways of Chaos suit them more than the Imperium, or the classic case of the … So you can either side with me and break everyone free from this oppression at all costs or... Go back to slaving away at the behest of a corpse and his fanatical followers. As indicated above, this is also where plasma guns, melta guns, missle launchers, and lascannons turn your plague marines into I3 Chaos Space Marines, that are 8 points more expensive each. In the series the main character kidnaps a Navigator and his personal slave is tasked with convincing her to work for them. If any Chaos Space Marine wanted redemption, saw he was wrong in siding with Chaos, he'd know for a fact the Imperium might listen to him confess his sins before executing him. Your future is determined by how much blood you're willing to spill in their names, you live for yourself and not as a slave to the Corpse Emperor. These are examples of Imperial citizens who don’t actually believe in the God-Emperor, or at least don’t associate it with the Imperial regime in the way that any ‘true’ Imperial citizen would do. I'm willing to-What? ", I feel that your average cultist don't even realize they're working with a daemon. Start Collecting! 1. Yesterday, we saw a glimpse of how the Space Marines are looking in the new edition, so we reckon it’s only fair we investigate their dark brethren, the Chaos Space Marines, next. These extra attacks cannot themselves generate any further … You will never amount to anything, unless you're a noble you have no name or identity, you mean nothing. Chaos Already Has Upgraded Marines. From a fluff-perspective, a Chaos Space Marine army can be a warband derived from one of the nine original Traitor Legions, or a more recent chapter of loyalists that has gone Renegade, or a mixture of both. There are many places that an Imperial citizen can go if they don’t want to be a part of Imperial society: Canonically, you’ve got mentions of your xenos-loving Tau sympathisers, you’ve got the various rebel enclaves that exist (even if just until the Imperium gets around to stamping on them) and you’ve got human empires that exist outside the Imperium’s borders, either due to a collapse of Imperial rule in a given area, or because the Imperium’s expansion since the Age of Strife has never actually reached them. Christianity, heresy, and the casual nature of belief in many areas of medieval Europe, which is, of course, the analogue upon which the Imperium is built.). It's mostly done by Astartes since they have something to offer, or by foolish cultists who think they have something to offer. Cult troops, Noise Marines, Plague Marines, Rubric Marines, and Khorne Berserks are all just upgraded Marines and basically fill the same role as Primaris Marines. Perhaps you're a sorcerer, and despite all the knowledge you've gained through your travels you still lack something that will raise you to the next level. Hey guys, lets take a look at the Elites of the Chaos Space Marines in detail. The full fall into Chaos is a very long process. Marines do this for a number of reasons, although the cause of this is usually finding that the ways of Chaos suit them more than the Imperium, or the classic case of the Imperium dicking them over (largely the case for post-heresy chapters). This is supported in canon in at least a couple of Black Library novels. It probably won’t happen overnight, it may take a hundred years or more, but that emptiness in the Space Marine’s soul needs filling somehow, and the Dark Gods are always out there, ready to accept his allegiance. The Chaos Space Marines set has a strong Daemonkin vibe, comprising the following units: HQ: Master of Possession Troops: 10 Chaos Space Marines Elites: 2 Greater Possessed Heavy Support: 2 Obliterators Heavy Support: Venomcrawler With this Start Collecting! The Traitor Legions of the Chaos Space Marines represent 9 of the 20 original First Founding Legions of Space Marines who were created by the Emperor of Mankind from the genomes of his 20 Primarchs in the late 30th Millennium to fight the Great Crusadethat forged the Imperium of Man. … Assault marines have noisy jet packs, so again, I can see why they aren't infiltrating either. I love my Night Lords army and want to use it but every single time it blows my mind how incredibly awful CSMs are. When a Marine leaves his Chapter, for whatever reason, three of those four anchors are cut free. A: you get a lesser demon. I arranged a game with semi-regular opponent John and his Slaanesh force, 1500 points (probably - I was using the recently updated … He was born in a field and raised in the woods. The Emperor’s purity has already been violated in the renegade’s eyes, so how, in that case, can the renegade Marine continue to hate Chaos to quite the same degree as he once did? Navigators treated like slaves? Astartes, though, are as inhuman in their minds as they are in their bodies. ^ Excellent recruitment pitch. I think it’s supported in canon, although I can’t remember where it was written, if it is, but they have an inherent vulnerability to Chaos. If a Marine becomes disillusioned with the Imperium, he can blame the petty mortals that have corrupted it from the Emperor’s vision of the Great Crusade, and his loyalty to the Emperor remains intact and all is well and good. Death to the False Emperor: Each time you roll a hit roll of 6+ for a model with this ability in the Fight phase, it can, if it was targeting an IMPERIUM unit, immediately make an extra attack against the same unit using the same weapon. You have to remember Chaos doesn't walk up to you, shake your hand and say "join us". this thread is full of heresy and needs to be purged... but let me give you a quote that imho explains chaos nicely, "Once upon a time there was a little boy. This is an emotional and psychological crisis that a Space Marine should never have to experience, and has no training or experience in how to cope; this is way beyond the scope of any doubts he may have expressed to his chaplains before his exile. As is so often the case in Warhammer 40,000, the Imperium is a tragedy. It’s a way of coping with trauma without going completely insane. First off: the most basic question. Oh, and Death to the False Emperor! Chaos Marines have extended lifespans due to the time-warping effects of the Eye of Terror, and the fact that space marines as a whole are unable to die of old age, and their millennia of experience gives them levels of mastery with more advanced skills and tactics that Loyalist Space Marines do not have. It can be centuries in the making, a slow insidious rot in your soul that the gods are very patient to work open. So heres the thing. I love my Night Lords army and want to use it but every single time it blows my mind how incredibly awful CSMs are. ( Log Out / Blue. Sometimes Khorne listens, sometimes that's just enough to worm into your head. If your army is part of Alpha Legion or otherwise related to it, it makes even more sense to have ordinary looking space marines with you. The Space Marine’s psychology drifts out of its safe harbour and into a storm. So, is the belief in Chaos "forced" into the individuals? He knew the name of every stinging insect. ... send in my commander to get past it since he is pretty fast and durable and ill summon a crapload of flayed ones and turn into the nightbringer. The whole Ork Pop and Wargh! Be prepared for a history lesson and surprisingly little rage. Besides the Space Marine Legion under his direct command, the Sons of Horus, eight of his brother-Primarchs and their legions also joined him in the Horus Heresy against the Emperor.Only when Horus was slain at the ultimate conflict of the Heresy, th… Space Marines and Guard don't turn on each other. Whether it’s the hyper-masculinity or the gratuitous violence dispensed against the Chaos-worshiping heretics, WH40K’s Space Marines are a logical place to start when imagining how our Marines … Pink. ( Log Out / At night he would look at the lights in the houses and he would want: Why was he outside and they’d be in? Template:Article issues In the table-top wargame Warhammer 40,000, the Chaos Space Marines or Chaos Marines, are Space Marines who serve the Chaos Gods. A tactical series by Learn2Eel Last time we talked about the Named Characters. This is fantastic. They just tend to be a bit more combat-oriented than the average homo sapiens.) So long as that remains intact, I’d suggest that the renegade Space Marine will stay loyal to Imperial ideals, even if not to the Imperium itself. Chaos already has upgraded Marines, the Cult troops. This applies to Space Marines as well as it does you or I. Most Chaos Space Marines players go for the Firestorm + Motorhead doctrines (move in rhino and shoot with plasma guns / meltagun). Chaos Space Marines are fundamentally tactical marines who defected to the other side. Ahh, the much ignored Chaos Marine. Space Marines live for war, it's what they're designed for and it's what they'll do until they die on the battlefield. And then there’s Imperial society itself. Some servants of Chaos may revel in berserk fury, but these march with deadly precision, dispatching all who oppose them without pity. I would love to have some flying nurgle dudes with a fly pun or naming scheme in there! No selling of your "soul" required. In the 40k universe there's gotta be a massive amount of cults/semi-cults/unwitting gatherings of dupes available for people who are just angry and poor. Sometimes it's a bit more grand. This is a SPOILER from the 40K short story Honour Among Friends. As ever, the setting’s deeper than that. Add to library 1 Official lore and fan fluff are welcomed. Give praise to the Dark Gods, as today we’re looking … Right, lockdown easing, 9th edition released, time for some 40k! thatd prolly do it at least i hope so. (Yes, Marines have emotional needs, just like normal humans. Chaos is the most obvious one of those. :P. If you are a fan of warhammer 40k and like the chaos spaces marines this may be for you. Some people just don’t find them interesting - whether that’s because they’re not relatable or they almost never lose or whatever. My army employs a lot of summoned daemons, typically around 3 to 4 squads, about 15 in each squad, typically a daemon prince of nurgle, greater daemon, 2 squads of marines … In combat, Chaos Space Marines are brutal and efficient killing machines. Basically, I'm going into detail about what I feel are the competitive choice Change ). What Warhammer 40k Chaos Space Marine are you? It makes sense to me that they have identical stats. Add in that the Astartes and Guard were telling THEM to stand down and lay down arms to them certainly didn't help, especially as one of Kaurava's worlds was a major shrine … Space Marines live for war, it's what they're designed for and it's what they'll do until they die on the battlefield. With a little help of doubt? Main article: Horus HeresyTen thousand years ago, Horus, Warmaster of the Imperium and most trusted 'son' of the Emperor, fell to Chaos due to a conspiracy by the Word Bearers. So you do it again, always careful to preserve your mind and sanity. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. However, when a Space Marine Chapter is overstretched, it … "I don't like the way Emps does things. Change ), You are commenting using your Facebook account. You don’t get to retire from being a space marine. Space Marines are a ♥♥♥♥ load stronger than Chaos. Chaos Space Marines have some great units that are fairly fragile and in the case of the Lord … New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, A subreddit for the lore and stories encompassing the dark future of the 41st millennium. Every single 40k army can be used to fight in a 30k setting..except chaos space marines..wouldn't it be interesting if chaos space marines got squatted..and they built them up from the heresy and redeveloped the range that way. I can understand rebelling against a government that you don't agree with but. If there are chocolate chip cookies, I'm in. If you want little human soldiers on your tabletop, they’re waving banners with the double-headed eagle or the eight-pointed star. He's still a slave, but he has an identity, the demigod soldiers that built the Imperium respect him (as much as they can respect a human), he's the pilot and artificer for the squad, and when he lost his arm and half his face they even went out of their way to acquire replacement augmetics for him. The origins of Chaos Space Marines go back to Erebus of the Word Bearers, the first Chaos Marine, who then corrupte… Often it starts with a citizen questioning his living conditions, or rations, and can mutate into delusions of freedom and equality. Macca takes his promised look at the Chaos Codex, with the benefit of their new rules. A good shot with a S8 AP3 Battle Cannon may spell doom for your plague marines if not in a vehicle or in cover. Every now and then I engage in the sadomasochistic act of writing a competitive CSM list that actually has Chaos Space Marines in it. Those Night Lords who date from the time of the Horus Heresy do not have irises, with the visible part of their eyes consisting entirely of jet-black pupils. To get back at that hatchet faced son of a bitch who works us all like dogs in the factory just because his name is at the start of the alphabet and was made overseer. Using overlapping aura abilities from key support characters like the Exalted Champion and Dark Apostle, even Cultists can be transformed into brutal killing machines – particularly when … They're my friends who'll be helping save you. Astartes traitors to the Imperium of Man who instead turned to the Ruinous Powers. It also explains why the Inquisition, Commissariat, and other organisations are so fanatical about purging it. If you are a fan of warhammer 40k and like the chaos spaces marines this may be for you. The Imperium put this need for service and obedience into the Space Marine, and it’s … Chaos Space Marines have fought a 10,000 years long war on the Imperium and its Corpse-Emperor. Only his love for the Emperor is left. Image:Codex-Chaos Space Marines.jpg is being used on this article. For the best viewing experience, as well as events we recommend using old reddit version - https://old.reddit.com/r/40kLore/, Press J to jump to the feed. Hello! Dark Eldar have their own goals and desires, if they just so happen to line up with the Chaos Space Marines, at the time, then there is no reason why they couldn't work together (Although I would never trust such a relationship to last for very long.) AngryBerzerker. Ever wondered where the mercenaries hired by the bad guys to kill an Inquisitor or an Abitrator or other representative of the Emperor come from in a theocratic setting? It's just a basic fact. The more questions an Imperial Citizen asks, the more likely he is to invite the forces of Chaos into his home. this is true in dow vanilla Chaos was a race for me, it could upgrade its CSM with range\hp upgrades just like SM flamers\rpg\pg\hb too They are also referred to as the Traitor Legions, primarily in background material written from the perspective of the Imperium. Yes. The Night Lords were originally the VIII th Legion of Space Marines created during the First Founding.They betrayed the trust of the Emperor of Mankind during the Horus Heresy of the 31st Millennium and became one of the 9 Traitor Legions of Chaos Space Marines.. Many Orks, Tyranids and IG players use The wave, fielding a lot of cheap troops that, taken alone don't accomplish anything, but in masse do great dammage. Though the Blood Ravens have a long and glorious history of service to the Emperor, their exact origins and earliest days in the service of the Imperium are obscured and uncertain. (c.f. So long as no one twigs that you don’t give a damn about a dead guy on Terra, and you go to chapel just enough that the preacher doesn’t get suspicious, you can exist as a quiet atheist for your entire life. So you think "Well, Zankithur sacrificed his hand and learned some cool tricks, I'll just sacrifice my arm and see how much I can get out of that. Enemy Space Marines wouldnt be impressed I wouldnt say, and I doubt that fellow Chaos Space Marines would see that as a impressive kill. We will find the perfect spot for you to apply your talents, and your talents will better our entire Empire! At this time Horus, the Warmaster of the Imperial forces and Primarch of the XVI Legion, the Luna Wolves, (which the Emperor all… The Dark Gods should hire you as the head of their PR department. Why do chaos space marines have no interceptors? I feel like I bring it up way too much, but the Night Lords series gives a fantastic perspective into it. Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. He said no. There doesn't need to be a deep personal poetic reason to turn to Chaos. Why would you think that route is any better? Subject: WHy do chaos space marines shout 'Death to the FALSE Emperor'? "Hey so I heard you live in an oppressive theocratic autocracy. And yeah, they're exactly the kind of people you've been taught all your life to abhor but you've also been taught all your life to obey authority and look where that's got you. Why do Chaos Space Marines...take 'mortal' skulls? There are two major things needed when starting out with a Chaos Space Marines army and the first is the codex hence why the previous article was a summary review of the Chaos Space Marine Codex. Consorting with daemons comes much later in the process. My army employs a lot of summoned daemons, typically around 3 to 4 squads, about 15 in each squad, typically a daemon prince of nurgle, greater daemon, 2 squads of marines, defiler and raptors. agnosto. His explanation is basically that he slaved away for most of his life for the Imperium and was spat on by everyone around him. A space marine and a Chaos space marine end up in a arena.Both are generic space marines, and are equipped with a bolter, chainsword and power armour. The 3+ armor save and the rapid fire 3+ ballistic skill. What kind of medical insurance does the Chaos Gods give? Chaos Space Marines are for chumps! Why was he so hungry and they fed? You can only realize that you have been doing Chaos works so late in the game. The premium add-on pack, which has a cost of 800 Microsoft Points / $10.00, includes a new Exterminatus mode called Chaos Unleashed. Not even their Chapter Master or Librarians can say with any certainty when the Blood Ravens were founded or from which of the First Founding Space Marine Legions the Chapter is descended.The Chapter's written records in its Librarium only go back to the … He’s been trained from recruitment to hate Chaos, to revile the traitor and the heretic as being unworthy of life, and to fear the power that Chaos has over the weak-minded. Not all, but some of them feel like they can take a shortcut to their rise to power. I also seem to recall that someone stole a bunch of geneseed from a rather unfortunate chapter. To help out, the Dark Gods graced us with their herald, Justin Curtis, who divides his time between playtesting Warhammer 40,000 and making the galaxy burn. All servants of the Imperium are their arch-enemy: as thus all Chaos Space Marines units have experience in fighting against Space Marine units and gain increased morale and melee accuracy. Tags: chaos Chaos Lord Chaos Space Marines csm review tactics Tactics Corner Traitor Legions warhammer 40K About SaltyJohn John has been playing Warhammer 40k since the 3rd edition box set with Space Marines, Dark Eldar, and weird green palm trees were in the set. Aspiring author, but not giving up the day job just yet. As a Chaos Space Marine player, I definitely do not follow the "norm" that was stated on here, and my tactics seem to work for some reason, even though they're really simple. It's never made much sense why the traitor legions don't have the toys that the chapters do. Space Marines, though, they’re a different kettle of fish entirely. Oh those guys? The contrast with the Space Marines is that the Astartes teach loyalty to your brothers, the Sororitas teach loyalty to the … And as for infusion of chaos power, most people, space marines included, who get "infused with chaos power" don't become … Yes, I'm aware they have horns. Sometimes it's minor, in the back of your mind you simply think "Khorne guide my blade" as you cleave through a rival or a thinblood Loyalist. thanks for all … Join the Tau Empire, and your life will have purpose in the Greater Good. In the winter the boy would freeze and in the summer he would boil. After all, I can just replace it with an augmetic, right?". It makes sense to me that they have identical stats. Either way, that’s the fourth anchor gone. Night Lords Chaos Space Marines have jet-black eyes and pale skin. Again, assuming a larger game, I'd like to keep a squad or two back holding objectives on my side of the board. I already mentioned the Chaos Space Marines you can build from the start; they're excellent basic infantry in the early game, and with stuff like melta bombs, Marks and so on, they can still be useful later on. For a start, he is one point cheeper, and gets and extra point of leadership and a chainsword. ( Log Out / These are the anchors that hold Space Marines in loyalty to the Imperium. The Sisterhood is a highly zealous orginization to start wtih, add the scope of the crisis certainly didn't help, with chaos and xenos at every turn. Of all the Chaos Space Marine Traitor Legions, the Night Lords seem to be the least mutated. Sign up Log in. Space Marines are a ♥♥♥♥ load stronger than Chaos. The farther an army list strays from these two core mechanics the more … It is its own obsessive need to keep the Astartes under control that spawns new enemies. Sometimes it's minor, in the back of your mind you simply think "Khorne guide my blade" as you cleave through a rival or a thinblood Loyalist. But as Iceman said it has been explicitly mentioned that all renegade marines eventually turn to Chaos, and the reason for that is that the ones who don't turn to Chaos just die. Anyway, you have your common Marine fair in Chaos Space Marines, OBVIOUSLY. Race has only ever been nerfed since vanilla Dow. You don’t have to believe in the divinity of the God-Emperor of Mankind. Sure you may swap a helmet there and add spikes there, but mixing them up with proper chaos space marines gives diversity for your squads. Well, he’s not quite a Tac Marine. However, on the other hand, … Chaos Space Marines Special Rules. Race has only ever been nerfed since vanilla Dow. As already described, they can lose their faith in the Emperor quietly, without it ever affecting the rest of their lifestyle or sense of identity, and without feeling the need to turn to the Dark Gods. Chaos Space Marines would be a force composed mainly from units analogous to Space Marines; due to using ancient technology ten thousand years old, they would have generally weaker damage from their normal units only by branding themselves with a Chaos God’s mark, symbols of allegiance to a particular god which endows … ( Log Out / In short, humans are capable of not worshiping the Emperor without automatically embracing the Dark Gods. A Night Lords – When an opponent takes a Nerve test for a model in their kill team, they have to add 1 to the test for each of … Other/Don't have one. And so you do. Time to serve crazy guys". There is one Astartes who came to regret his decision to turn to Chaos, though very very very late. Think about it. Chaos Space Marines. A: you get a lesser demon. Now, of course they don’t do as much as they used to, but it is still a level of different-ness.